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arXiv:2609.30284

Von Neumann's Two Quantum Entropies

Biao Wu

cond-mat.stat-mechquant-phSubmitted Sep 3, 2026• Announced Sep 4, 2026• 0 citations
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Abstract

Von Neumann proposed two quantum entropies, one in 1927 and the other in 1929. He intended to define thermodynamic entropy for quantum states in both cases. The 1927 entropy is the well-known von Neumann entropy, which is zero for all pure states. The 1929 entropy, which is nonzero for almost all pure states, has largely been ignored. After reviewing the history and properties of both entropies, we argue that the 1927 entropy is not thermodynamic entropy and should be used simply as a measure of entanglement, whereas the 1929 entropy is the true thermodynamic entropy for quantum states.

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6pages, 4 figures

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Von Neumann proposed two quantum entropies, one in 1927 and the other in 1929. He intended to define thermodynamic entropy for quantum states in both cases. The 1927 entropy is the well-known von Neumann entropy, which is zero for all pure states. The 1929 entropy, which is nonzero for almost all pure states, has largely been ignored. After reviewing the history and properties of both entropies, we argue that the 1927 entropy is not thermodynamic entropy and should be used simply as a measure of entanglement, whereas the 1929 entropy is the true thermodynamic entropy for quantum states.
In 1932, John von Neumann argued for the equivalence of the thermodynamic entropy and −Trρlnρ, since known as the von Neumann entropy. Meir Hemmo and Orly R. Shenker recently challenged this argument by pointing out an alleged discrepancy between the two entropies in the single-particle case, concluding that they must be distinct. In this article, their argument is shown to be problematic as it (a) allows for a violation of the second law of thermodynamics and (b) is based on an incorrect calculation of the von Neumann entropy.
Given the algebra of observables of a quantum system subject to selection rules, a state can be represented by different density matrices. As a result, different von Neumann entropies can be associated with the same state. Motivated by a minimality property of the von Neumann entropy of a density matrix with respect to its possible decompositions into pure states, we give a purely algebraic definition of entropy for states of an algebra of observables, thus solving the above ambiguity. The entropy so-defined satisfies all the desirable thermodynamic properties and reduces to the von Neumann entropy in the quantum mechanical case. Moreover, it can be shown to be equal to the von Neumann entropy of the unique representative density matrix belonging to the operator algebra of a multiplicity-free Hilbert-space representation.
The von Neumann entropy definition is -Tr ( d ln(d)) and is linked to: = Tr (d A) ((1)). Here d is a matrix as is A i.e Aij = . As a result d is often not diagonal. It seems further that the idea of entropy is linked to an operator (2). In other words, one might have certain probabilities linked to the operator P momentum and a different set to X. For a diagonal d, von Neumann’s form is the same as Shannon’s entropy, but uses the eigenvalues of d. For a pure quantum bound state Wn(x), it seems that one considers the two operators X and P and writes two entropies using Shannon’s entropy form: - Integral dx W(x)W(x) ln(WW) and -Integral dp a(p)a(p) ln(a(p)a(p)) where W(x)=wavefunction= Sum over p a(p)exp(ipx). Here P(x)=W(x)W(x) and P(p)=a(p)a(p). For example in (3), one may see calculations of these “distinct” entropies for a particle in a box with infinite potential walls. X and P are linked to measurables and for a quantum bound system one cannot know exactly x and p at the same time. One may write < KE > for a bound state in two ways: Integral dp a(p)a(p) pp/2m or Integral dx W(x) (-1/2m d/dx dW/dx). Using Shannon’s entropy approach one obtains two different entropy values Sx and Sp. With respect to von Neumann’s entropy, it is zero for a pure state. Although one cannot know x and p at the same time (in terms of a measurement) that does not prevent one from writing x and p together (i.e. both known) in exp(ipx) for the wavefunction of a free particle. In this note we suggest that one might consider product probabilities linked to more than one operator when considering entropy. For example, for <KE> one may write Integral dx P(x) Integral dp pp/2m P(p/x) thus acknowledging that both x and p play a role. In this case, P(x)P(p/x) is the probability to use in Shannon’s entropy as we have shown in (4). In (3) it is suggested that P(x)P(p/x) be used in order to incorporate both variables x and p. Using P(x)P(p) in Shannon’s entropy yields the same overall entropy when integrated over x and p i.e. S=Sx+Sp. One reason that the sum is useful is that it eliminates parameters such as L (box length) for a particle in a box with infinite walls (or k the spring constant for an oscillator. This allows for a quantum adiabatic transformation of a pure state to be isentropic. This follows from a Fourier transformation i.e. W(x)=Sum over p a(p)exp(ipx). The two variables p and x scale with L in the opposite manner i.e. x/L and pL (5). Thus we argue that entropy is not necessarily linked to only one operator, but rather for a pure state is linked to variables which appear in a Fourier transform. Usually a Fourier transform is simply a mathematical procedure, but not in the case of the quantum pure state wavefunction where the variable p is actually momentum. In this note we try to investigate how the quantum relationship between p and x emerges. We argue that it exists at the level of the classical action for a free particle (relativistic or nonrelativistic) A=-Et+px where dA/dx partial =p and dA/dt partial = -E. Thus p and x are variable pairs in classical dynamics and this carries over to classical statistical phase space linked to p and x. We argue that a quantum dynamical link between p and x is also present in A i.e. -id/dx exp(iA) = p exp(iA). In other words p and x are linked dynamically in quantum mechanics as well (for a free particle) with exp(-iEt+ipx) being part of this link. The Fourier series form is already present in this solution as one may create a momentum distribution i.e. Sum over p a(p)exp(ipx). This depends on p and x and both affect any operator based on p and x (or one of these). Thus we expect that probabilities linked to both p and x should appear in an expression of entropy for a quantum bound state.
We take the view that the standard von Neumann definition, in which the entropy SvNS^{vN}SvN of a pure state is zero, is in evident conflict with the statement of the second law that the entropy of the universe SunivS_{univ}Suniv​ increases in spontaneous processes, $ ΔS_{univ} > 0$. Here we seek an alternative entropy of the universe SunivS_{univ}Suniv​ that is in accord with the second law, in a spirit not dissimilar to von Neumann himself in lesser-known work. We perform simulations of time dependent dynamics for a previously developed \cite{polyadbath} model quantum system becoming entangled with a quantum environment. We test the new definition of the entropy of the system-environment "universe" against the standard thermodynamic relation $ ΔF_{sys} = - T ΔS_{univ} $, calculating system properties using the reduced density matrix and standard von Neumann entropy. Good agreement is obtained, showing the compatibility of an entropy for a pure state of a universe with the statement of the second law and the concept of free energy. Interesting deviation from microcanonical behavior within the zero order energy shell is observed in a context of effectively microcanonical behavior within the much larger total basis of the time dependent universe.
The quantum entropy is usually defined using von Neumann's formula, which measures lack of information and vanishes for pure states. In contrast, we obtain a formula for the entropy of a pure state as it is measured from thermodynamic experiments, solely from the self-entanglement of the wave function, and find strong numerical evidence that the two are in agreement for nonintegrable systems, both for energy eigenstates and for states that are obtained at long times under the evolution of more general initial conditions. This is an extension of Boltzmann's hypothesis for classical systems, relating microscopic motion to thermodynamics.
The Von Neumann entropy of reduced states is a measure of bipartite entanglement. Despite its name, the entanglement entropy cannot by itself be used as a resource for creating thermodynamic heat flows. In order to extract heat from an entangled pure state, it first needs to be converted into a stochastically mixed state by a process of quantum state reduction. Here we show that even in a system with only two degrees of freedom, for which bipartite entanglement is the sole form of entanglement available, the entanglement entropy cannot be converted into thermodynamic entropy in a one-to-one fashion. Moreover, we show that the stochastic dynamics which is necessarily present in any realistic model of quantum state reduction, allows for multiple definitions of entropy. We indicate why quantum state reduction does not allow construction of a perpetuum mobile, despite some measures of entropy evolving non-monotonically during its dynamics. Finally, we relate the different measures of entropy to the information they contain about quantum entanglement and extractable heat, and show that models of quantum state reduction based on physical, correlated stochastic driving forces give rise to observable thermodynamic signatures of quantum state reduction that can be unambiguously distinguished from environment-induced dephasing.